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ForumNation Podcast Episode 4 Transcript- Janine Lee

In the fourth episode of our ForumNation podcast, David Biemesderfer interviews Janine.  She spoke about SECF’s journey to develop an equity framework to guide the organization’s work, the changes she’s seen in philanthropy during her career, and her challenge to philanthropy to step up in bigger ways to meet what she sees as a “pivotal” leadership moment for the field.

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Dave Beimesderfer (00:05):

ForumNation is a podcast of United Philanthropy Forum, where we interview amazing philanthropy leaders that we want more people to know about. You'll hear about their personal stories of transformation, their life inflection points, and their surprising leadership moments. You'll hear insights about what's behind the title; those less than perfect moments, those overcoming the odds moments, and those moments where you reach down and find something within you that you didn't know was there. I'm your host, Dave Biemesderfer.

Janine Lee is a veteran strategist and grantmaker in philanthropy, with more than 25 years of rich and diverse leadership with nonprofits and foundations. Janine is President and CEO of the Southeastern Council of Foundations based in Atlanta, which is the nation's largest regional association of grantmakers, serving more than 330 foundations and corporate giving programs, representing more than 50 billion in assets active in the south.

During her career in philanthropy, Janine has served in leadership roles at the Arthur M. Blank Family Foundation, where she worked as vice president of education programs, and the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, where she was vice president of community building and philanthropy. Janine serves on the board of directors of Independent Sector, and on the United Philanthropy Forum's Racial Equity Committee. Her previous board service includes serving on the board of directors of United Philanthropy Forum and the National Center for Family Philanthropy, and on the Mayor's Advisory Board on Homelessness in Atlanta. She is also a co-founder and former chair of Grantmakers for Effective Organizations, known as GEO, and the list goes on and on. But I'll stop there and say, Janine Lee, welcome to ForumNation.

Janine Lee (02:05):

Thank you, Dave. Glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Dave Beimesderfer (02:10):

Absolutely. So nice to have this time with you today. Wanted to just spend a few minutes talking about your background, and I know that you are originally from Kansas City. That's the place I lived for five years, myself. How did growing up in Kansas City kind of shape the start of your life?

Janine Lee (02:33):

Well, thank you for that question, Dave. I'll start out by saying actually a lot of people don't know this Dave, but I spent 20 years in Kansas City prior to moving to Atlanta, Georgia in 2005. But I'm actually a native Kansan. So I grew up in small communities, small towns in Kansas, both Emporia, Kansas, where I was born, and Ottawa, Kansas, where I finished high school. And then went back to Emporia to go to college, and then later finished with an MBA at Rockhurst University years later.

But I would say that the way that it shaped me, it's interesting, we're having this conversation because my first career was actually as a drug and alcohol treatment counselor. And then I moved into drug and alcohol prevention education because I became frustrated with seeing that revolving door. As important as it is to provide that kind of service, I wanted to get on the other side of it and educate children, youth, and their families about the concerns of drug and alcohol abuse.

But my family is what stimulated that. My father was an alcoholic, and he was very violent when he was drunk. So I came from a family that was very working poor and with a lot of domestic violence and alcoholism. So that's a part of what stimulated me to move into the helping field.

Dave Beimesderfer (04:20):

Great. Thanks for sharing that. So then you went from that field. How did you get into philanthropy from there?

Janine Lee (04:30):

So, my first career being drug and alcohol prevention education and treatment kind of move me directly into the opportunity to join the Ewing Marion Kauffman foundation. Before it was a grantmaking foundation, it was an operating foundation. And Mr. Kauffman, who really started the pharmaceutical company, Marion Merrell Dow, it was Marion Laboratories before it merged with Merrell Dow, he also owned the Royals baseball team. And there were four Royals players back in the eighties that were basically convicted of cocaine possession. And he thought that sent a terrible message to the community. So he started an alcohol and other drug prevention education program called Project STAR, Students Taught Awareness and Resistance. And I joined the Kauffman Foundation as a specialist to work with Project STAR, and then later became the director of Project STAR.

Dave Beimesderfer (05:43):

Right. And then from there, you went in to the grantmaking side of the foundation.

Janine Lee (05:50):

Upon Mr. Kauffman's death in 1993, I joined the foundation in 1990. About 800 million or so came into the foundation and we suddenly found ourselves to be grant-makers. So we spent about a year learning everything we could about philanthropy and grantmaking, and traveled all across the country to meet with other foundation leaders before determining what our two programmatic areas would be. And that was education and community building.

Dave Beimesderfer (06:25):

And then sometime, I believe, while you were at Kauffman, you, you became one of the founders of Grantmakers for Effective Organizations. How did that all come about for you?

Janine Lee (06:34):

That was an interesting journey because as we started growing and learning about each of the programmatic areas that we would be investing in and creating a strategic plan around, I became the director of the Community Building Program. And then of course later, a vice president of that program. And one of my mentors at the foundation at that time, who was the only person that had any true philanthropic experience at the Kauffman Foundation at that time, was Gene Wilson. And Gene Wilson had been the president of the ARCO foundation. And he really believed in the inextricable link between public charities and philanthropy. And he was a true mentor because he asked a lot of tough questions. And one of the things he said was, "Janine, now that this program is designed and the strategy has been built, who's going to help us understand what the capacity needs and interests are of nonprofits?"

And I honestly, at the time, wasn't sure exactly what he meant, but he said, "It's one thing to invest in programs. And it's another thing to invest in the infrastructure of these nonprofits and to the leadership of these nonprofits, the technology, their capacity to deliver on those programs."

And then I began to understand what he meant, and I started pursuing other foundations that were doing what at that time was called either management assistance or technical assistance. And in some cases it was being referred to as organizational effectiveness.

I met Barbara Kibbe who was at the Packard Foundation at that time. And she had a strategy that she was building and invited me to join her in starting an affinity group through the Council on Foundations, which we named GEO, Grantmakers for Effective Organizations. It was an interesting start because within about a year she hosted a meeting in Monterey, and we realized there were about 120 or so philanthropic leaders that were interested and attended. The next year in Kansas City at the Kauffman Foundation, I hosted and we had about 250 leaders come. And then we realized that we were really onto something.

Dave Beimesderfer (09:19):

What a great contribution to the field that you made, Janine, as it's still going strong [crosstalk 00:09:24].

Janine Lee (09:23):

Thank you. I'm proud of GEO.

Dave Beimesderfer (09:26):

Yeah. Absolutely. And then you stayed in [inaudible 00:00:09:30]. I know you went on to the Arthur M. Blank Foundation, and now of course you are leading, for the past 10 years, at Southeastern Council of Foundations. What have you noticed being some key changes, if any, for the better or the worse that you noticed in our field since you started?

Janine Lee (09:51):

Well, a few things. I've seen some incremental changes that I think have been really important. I remember well over 20 years ago when I first came into the field... It's actually closer to 30 years ago now. I recall that there was so much emphasis on programmatic investments in grantmaking, and really focused on kind of the outcomes of what it was that we wanted to accomplish through those programmatic investments with not as much consideration for the strength of the organization, the strength of the board of the organization, the leadership, its capacity to deliver. And I think in many ways we were doing non-profits a disservice by not attending to that because it was forcing them to figure out creative ways that they could apply for programmatic dollars and infuse some organizational dollars in there and some professional development dollars.

Over the years and certainly through GEO, I think we can see, because they've tracked it very well, that there's been really an exponential increase in understanding and appreciation of how important it is to not only invest in programs, but invest in people and the organization, its culture, its leadership, its ability to deliver on its mission. And I think it comes back to what my mentor shared with us from the very beginning, there is an inextricable link between public charities and philanthropy, and it's the delivery system by which philanthropy can deliver on its promise. So I think I've definitely seen a shift there. You know, it's always been a challenge-

Janine Lee (12:00):

There, it's always been a challenge to see such slow, but incremental growth in leadership among people of color in philanthropy. But over certainly now 30 years, it's a pride point to see so many people of color leading foundations all across the country. It's still not as diverse as it needs to be. That's still a huge challenge, not only within leadership, but within the staff and certainly among the trustees. I think that really has to change over time because the trustees really, in many ways, should represent the voice of the community. That may not always be true for family foundations, but it has the potential to be true for almost every other type of foundation. And certainly for family foundations that make a decision to bring on non-family members as trustees. So, it's very difficult to be proximate as folks like Brian Stevenson would say, "If you have no experience in the communities that you're investing in." So I think seeing the growth of diverse leadership among CEOs has been a string in philanthropy that needs to continue to grow and certainly within the staff. And I think we still have much more work to do among trustees.

Dave Beimesderfer (13:41):

Yeah. In the moment we find ourselves in right now Janine, over the past several months as the COVID-19 pandemic has shown a spotlight on the deep racial inequities that continue to exist in our country. In the last several weeks, as we've seen, growing calls around our country and around the globe calls for racial justice, social justice. What role do you see philanthropy playing to, if it's going to really play the best role that it can to support those efforts and to support the change that people are calling for in our country right now?

Janine Lee (14:19):

Well, philanthropy certainly has a role. I mean, philanthropy is a hugely important part of this democracy and philanthropy needs to have a voice. Philanthropy needs to speak up and be on the right side of history. And one of the concerns that I've had about philanthropy through my observation, not in one organization, but in multiple organizations having worked in leadership positions inside of philanthropy over the last 30 years now, is that we're so quiet. It's almost as if we're waiting for someone else to do something. And quite honestly, I think philanthropy needs to step up and it needs to bring its voice. It needs to bring its capital, not just its financial capital, but its social, its moral, its intellectual and reputational capital to the table. And we've got to have it now. I don't know what we're waiting for. I don't know what we've been waiting for. But this is a time in our history when I feel like we are literally watching and teetering on our very democracy being at stake. And so this has always been known as the risk capital for nonprofits. Well we know that nonprofits are now suffering. We know that philanthropy in America and certainly across the world does not have enough money to replace all of the money that government can put into those nonprofits. So we're in a crisis right now and I think we need to step up and we have to say something. You have to be present. We have to work in partnership with the nonprofits, with the community, with business, with our government in order to really roll up our sleeves and figure out what change we can support in our communities. And I realize there is a lot of polarization. There's a lot of politics involved. There's a lot of relationships. There's a lot of history here that sometimes people don't want to confront.

But this is the moment. I mean this is the time to really decide, what do you want to be? What do you want your legacy to be? What do you want to tell your children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren about what you did [inaudible 00:17:07] that you have now? And so I'm proud to see that philanthropy has stepped up in such a big way as it typically does around a crisis and build coalitions around resources and money. But now we need more than money. We need the money, absolutely. The community is suffering, so that is a given. But at this point we need all the other capital. We need the reputational capital too. We need the intellectual capital. We need everything that folks are willing to bring to the table because our democracy is at stake.

Dave Beimesderfer (17:55):

So if not now, I'm glad you said not now, when?

Janine Lee (17:55):

Exactly. Yeah. I think time in so many ways is up. I feel like we're at a tipping point now. I mean, people have to make some decisions now. Concern is if we don't, we may find ourselves here again.

Dave Beimesderfer (18:13):

Now I know at SECF you've been leading work over the last several years to create an equity framework for the organization, which seems even more relevant today than ever. Can you tell me about the work that went into getting that developed in SECF and what you hope now, given the moment we're in, what will happen moving forward?

Janine Lee (18:37):

Well when we look back at our history at SECF, I do have to give a lot of credit to my predecessors, who in different ways move forward, change agendas of their own. And certainly Bob Hall and Martin Layfield among them, were very deeply committed to change and to bringing forward an opportunity for everyone to have an opportunity to fully participate and reach their full potential. I think the difference here is when I arrived, I'm the first woman, the first person of color, the first African-American to lead the organization in 42 years. And so I came in with a lens that was very clear and specific around equity. And so I feel like this didn't happen even in the last two years. I've been at SECF for almost a decade and change takes time. And so incrementally over the course of those 10 years, there's been an awful lot of work done.

But I would say that there was a pivotal moment in 2017 when we had a discussion with our board where I brought forward a few questions. And one of them was really focused on what do we stand for? The second question was what are we willing to fight for? And the third was, are we willing to stand idly by while people suffer all across our region and the country and say nothing? And so there had been so many things that had happened over the years, and certainly we had a crisis communication process. Working with our marketing and communications team to put it out, messages around our thoughts and prayers. But there were so many. There were so many moments. Certainly Pulse Night Club, Warren Scott. Certainly our Walter Scott, excuse me. Certainly Trayvon Martin. There were so many moments over history and it just got old.

We started saying, we keep putting out thoughts and prayers and that just didn't feel like it was sufficient. And so the board was passionate and they came together and we had really hard and difficult conversations and it was not easy. And there were times that it was painful and there were tears over the years that we started working on this. And so as we developed, we decided that the board answer that question, that we needed to do something. We needed to create an equity framework for the organization. And it wasn't going to be, as Dr. King had said, "Something that we thingify." We didn't want to just put a program together and say, "Okay, that's it. That's what we're doing." Or a series of webinars or something like that. It really needed to be something serious where we would deeply embed it in the organization from the inside out. And we couldn't define clearly at that time exactly what it was going to look like, but we knew that it needed to be a commitment, something that would be institutional embedded in our culture, embedded in our practice, our policies, our culture, everything.

And so we put together a equity taskforce of board members from all across the region, representing various viewpoints and a very strong racial ethnic group. Men, women, the whole microcosm of our membership was there, LGBTQ. We wanted the whole, everybody's voice. And that group was deeply committed over at least 15 to 18 months, including spending time listening to members all across the region, doing focus groups, doing some southern tours to really sit down and talk with leaders within the community, as well as other philanthropic leaders in different parts of the south, including the Delta. And we learned and we listened and we spent a lot of time with member surveys and just hearing from members and hearing from the community. And then we began putting our own plan together, not only around what that might look like from the inside out, but also over the course...

Janine Lee (24:00):

I look like from the inside out, but also over the course of that time, we were working with the board and the staff to make sure that we were ready, to make sure that we were doing our own work. And a part of that work was bringing in thought leaders from our region and from across the country that were really much more expert in these areas than we found ourselves to be. And so we did the hard work of really taking a good look at our own biases and where we needed to do work as an organization around diversity, equity, and inclusion. And the conclusion was that we put together an equity framework that really would take a look at everything from talent management to hiring practices, to vendors and contractors and our own biases when we're in process of making these hires, et cetera, so that we would have more professional development around that.

And then we also did offer some potential programming, but we considered that to be just a start. We certainly have things like certain learning journeys as part of that portfolio. We have things like a chair's book club, which is just now kicking off. And we have both our equity committee chair and our chairman of the board that are leading that chair's book club around diversity, equity, inclusion and really focused on reading and learning and understanding the history of the South and the history of racial tensions in the South, and so the selections are all based on that. And then we also took a look at things like peer learning so that members would have a place to go and a safe space to communicate about these issues along with something called philanthropy, bridging divides, which would be conversations among CEOs initially, and then we'll build those conversations out to members as well.

So those are just a few of the things that we were offering. Certainly, we have a lot of research and data and a portal that provides a lot of information on certainly COVID-19 and the disparities and inequities there, but also just resources and research and information on DEI as well. So we wanted to start there, but we didn't want to end there. So we actually have now moved from an equity task force to an equity committee. It's a formal committee that's been approved by the board. It will be a permanent committee or SCCM. And our first chairman of that committee is Robert Dorsch who is our chair led too is African American, and as a vice president out of Robin's Family Foundation in Richmond, Virginia. And so we're very proud of that. And we know that that means that going forward, the organization will always have that regardless of who the president is and who the board members are.

Dave Beimesderfer (27:31):

Thank you for all your work. So right now you are in Atlanta where there are renewed protests with the recent murder of Rayshard Brooks on top of all the protests that started with George Floyd. Can you just tell me in terms of being in Atlanta, what's happening in Atlanta right now from your perspective as someone living there with an organization based there, and then moving forward for our field, our role specifically as there are calls for policing reform, or have you think about leading philanthropy to be involved in appropriate ways in those efforts as we look ahead?

Janine Lee (28:18):

Well, I'll answer the second question first about appropriate ways that philanthropy can tenfold. Our members at the Southeastern Council, just like other PSOs across the country, whether they're geographic PSOs, whether they happen to be identity-based, content based, practice-based PSOs, we all have the opportunity to do a couple of things really well. And I consider those things to be very important, that's to influence and to be persuasive. And we do that often through education of our members and our members are involved in different ways with all of these various issues through their grantmaking and through the work that they do at their foundation. So I think we have an opportunity and quite honestly, an obligation to ensure that we're providing our members current, real time information around issues, and certainly around philanthropy as a best practice itself, but now is the time to really appropriately identify what those key issues are and educate our members around that.

And we can bring in all the resources possible to make that happen and make great selections of who those resource people are. And we have many of them in our own network. And so I think the time is now to make those choices and decisions. There's no reason to wait. Being in Atlanta, it feels bittersweet. On one hand, we've got this extraordinary mayor who is so incredibly passionate, who's rising as a national leader and thinker around best practice when it comes to dealing with these issues, communicating about these issues. I think I'm not alone in saying how proud we are of her, but on the other hand, we've seen our chief of police resign and she was very thoughtful leader, but I think felt an obligation to resign given the events of Rayshard Brooks. I think we've seen too many officers that even in the midst of protesting around George Floyd, we've seen too many officers that continue to engage in behavior that has now caused them to be dismissed and has been hurtful and obviously with Rayshard Brooks, has caused his death. And so I think all of us are in pain around this. It's very difficult in Atlanta right now. And this is also on the heels of having some really serious voter issues just a few days ago. So it's starting to feel like just a convergence of challenges that are happening right here, but I don't think our challenges are any different than what's happening all across America. And I think it's past time for us to get more involved in philanthropy.

Dave Beimesderfer (32:06):

Can you talk about the role of PSOs as being influencers and being persuasive? They can really set the agendas can't they? They make decisions about what are the issues that members and the people that they bring in. It seems that that role is so critical to the field now more than ever, and perhaps in my view anyway, historically as an underappreciated PSOs themselves, but I'm hoping that's starting to change. It seems like it is.

Janine Lee (32:42):

Absolutely. And I think you're right in so many ways. Maybe we've even underestimated ourselves and PSOs, but PSOs, meaning philanthropic serving organizations. And I feel like there's power in numbers. We have the ability to convene. We have the ability to bring CEOs and trustees and program officers and other program leaders together. And when we invite them, they come. And so we have the ability to have their ear, to possibly influence their hearts and minds to help them understand so many of the issues that are happening right now, and everything is based on being responsive, being adaptable, being quick on our feet and strategic and really providing really strong knowledge and information, resources, and education. And we're trying to do that in so many different creative ways, even at SCCF because right now we're in a virtual format. So one of the things that we're doing to help build a portfolio of strength around getting information out and getting it in the fingertips of our members is we're working through our marketing and communications team on building, not just a annual meeting app, but an organizational app where they can get everything at their fingertips through their mobile devices in real time. So there's so many different creative ways that I think we can get information out even on a virtual platform, but I think we've got to do it and we've got to do it now.

Dave Beimesderfer (34:43):

And do you think we also have a responsibility or a role to play the whole philanthropy accountable for what they do? One of the strengths of philanthropy is you have the freedom to fund in ways you want to fund and how you want to fund it, where you want to fund it.

Janine Lee (35:00):

Well, that's a great question Dave. I tend to think it's very difficult for the PSOs, at least for SCCF, maybe it's not true for other PSOs to necessarily hold our members accountable, but I will tell you that I think philanthropy needs to hold itself accountable. And quite honestly, I think that we can help set an agenda. We can help educate. We can influence. We can be persuasive, but philanthropy needs to hold itself accountable because if it does not, then it's often through Congress. And certainly even now, there are groups of leaders in philanthropy that would like to see philanthropy hold itself accountable around things like an increase in payout. Well, these are the kind of things that I feel like-

Janine Lee (36:00):

Well, these are the kind of things that I feel like we need to really think carefully about self-regulation. If that can't happen, often, what does happen is that we find ourself on the menu and then we end up having to go to the Hill and contact our Congressmen and women in order to try to influence, persuade them around what we want to be on our agenda.

Dave Beimesderfer (36:30):

Right. Thinking back to your earlier conversation about the families of GEO, as you know right now in this moment of COVID-19, we've seen a growth in funders who are... more and more funders temporarily turning project grants into general operating support grants, being much more flexible with reporting and the streamlining, all of their processes, things GEO's been talking about since you founded it, help found it too many years ago. There's been a growth in that over the years. There seem to be some who weren't doing that are doing it now on a temporary basis. Do you see that as an opportunity that these things have continued not just temporarily, but to continue on this as new more widespread practices in our field.

Janine Lee (37:23):

Yes. I do see it as an opportunity because it's so interesting when these crises happen for those who may not have been doing it, may not have been providing general support or more flexible resources for non-profits to more easily use in ways that would help transform the work that they do. It seems like we understand it easily, quickly. We're willing to make those adaptations in moments of crisis, but often, these organizations, these nonprofits are often in kind of a perpetual form of crisis of one form or another and are often struggling around various resources in order to deliver on their mission. I do think that these are moments also that we can reinforce why it's so important through the work that we do at PSOs to help our members understand that, yes, we need these dollars in crisis, thank you for that, and thank you for supporting that often for sometimes two to three years, but we also need that in times that aren't in crisis as well.

Organizations need to be [inaudible 00:38:48]. During the 20 plus years that I spent inside a foundations and I'd often hear folks talk about creating dependency among nonprofits, and I'd often get in debates about that and say, "Well, unless we're willing to create new non-profits, I'm not sure exactly what we mean by that," because most foundations have geographic areas that they support, and many times, those geographies are somewhat limited other than, certainly, many national foundations that might support nonprofits all across the country, but particularly in the South, in our region, it's going to be small towns and communities. It might even be at the state level. It's very, very seldom that you would find many foundations in the South that are supporting the entire 11-state footprint.

There are exceptions, much like Mary Reynolds Babcock, but they're the exception, and so understanding that if you have a geographic area that you serve and you have a portfolio of nonprofits that you've worked with, there's an opportunity, number one, to expand and really get to know some of the people-of-color-led organizations that might be in that service area, that footprint that might also be a good candidates for investing in that may not always get the opportunity or the resources to deliver on the mission. Certainly, unless you're willing to invest in creating new ones, then you pretty much know what your service area is going to be.

Dave Beimesderfer (40:40):

Right. You've been working in SECF for a long time to strengthen and grow philanthropy in the South, strengthen the nonprofit sector in the South. What are your hopes for the future of philanthropy in the South? Where do you see us moving forward because there's been historical disparities in funding in the South [inaudible 00:41:03] you and a number of other organizations are working to change. How do you see us achieving that as we move forward?

Janine Lee (41:11):

In order to share that with you, I want to share what our vision and our definition of equity is. I think that will help give you a sense of what my hopes and aspirations are for Southern philanthropy. Our vision for the equity committee and the work that we're doing to advance equity at SECF is that Southern philanthropy will leverage the full power of its voice to identify the roots of inequity and diminish structures that perpetuate it and build a region that achieves its full equitable potential.

We seek inspire and strengthen learning, leadership, and actions within Southern philanthropy that are dedicated to the advancement of equity in our field and in our region. I'd like to share with you what our definition of equity is as well. We define it as full inclusion of all people in a society in which everyone can participate and prosper, and we believe that in an equitable society, everyone, regardless of circumstances of birth or upbringing, is treated justly and fairly by its institutions and systems.

We believe that to promote equity in the South and elsewhere, philanthropy must first acknowledge the historical roots of inequity and the present-day systems that perpetuate. It must then use its resources to spark transformation that allows all people to reach their full potential unhindered by hatred, bigotry, exclusion, or discrimination. We do consider racial equity to be at the center of everything that we do, given the history of inequities in the South and the history of slavery in the South.

Dave Beimesderfer (43:16):

Thank you for sharing that.

Janine Lee (43:20):


Dave Beimesderfer (43:23):

Janine, before we close, anything else that you'd like to share with folks listening to this about the role of philanthropy today, your hopes for the field moving forward?

Janine Lee (43:37):

Yeah. I would just say that it's time for us to use our voice, use our influence, use our power to help support people who need it the most, and communities all across our region and all across America, we need you now. Please, don't wait. There's no reason to wait. We've been waiting, and we've been too quiet for too long. It's time to answer those questions, what do you stand for, what are you willing to fight for, and are you willing to stand idly by and watch these protests in the streets [inaudible 00:44:23] African American men being murdered with the culture of police brutality and to see children, youth, and families struggle around food, health, poverty, income disparities?

Is this what philanthropy is about when we say love of humankind? I don't think so. I do hold philanthropy in general accountable for who it says it is. What I understood from the moment that I walked into philanthropy almost 30 years ago was that this was the risk capital. This was the place where of all places in America and our society and across the world where we could count on a group of leaders, a group of institutions to care, to love humanity, and so I think we should get about doing that. If that's not what we're doing, then I think as Sherece West once said, "Why are you in that seat? What are you doing there?" Sherece West-Scantlebury. I just want to say thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and let's make it happen.

Dave Beimesderfer (45:51):

Amen to that. Janine, thank you for lending your voice today and as you do all the time in our field.

Janine Lee (46:00):

Thank you so much, Dave.

Dave Beimesderfer (46:03):

I appreciate it. [inaudible 00:46:03] chat with you today.

Dave Beimesderfer (46:09):

ForumNation is a podcast of the United Philanthropy Forum, the largest network serving philanthropy in America. ForumNation is produced by Buoyant Partners and producer Eric Rigaud. Many thanks to the entire United Philanthropy Forum team, especially Courtney Moore, Brandon Iracks-Edelin, and Ivana Bikombe. Subscribe to ForumNation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. To learn more, go to